I posted a FB status update via twitter that apparently stirred quite a reaction, and sparked a very long discussion that included education, politics, satire and a few other topics. It’s interesting to me the caliber of conversations that happen via Facebook. Makes for some interesting thinking…
DK: frustrated with a public education system that believes learning only happens between 8&3 in a desk. not even sure where to start THAT rant!
9:18 AM Oct 23rd from web
MT: I will join your rant when you figure out where to start…
October 23 at 9:22am
KNM: I will join in….
October 23 at 9:27am
MS: start the rant at 8 and end somewhere after 3PM please- we have to keep rants formatted and with clear rubrics…that way we can quantify your value
October 23 at 9:30am
MS: ..and by value i meant learning and by learning i meant billable hours…and by billable hours i meant the number of text books I could sell…
October 23 at 9:31am
DB: Arne Duncan has put together a test so that he can review the data contained in your rant to see if it qualifies for funding under NCLB. In the meantime, he kindly requests that you align your rant to California state standards. That’s all. Carry on.
October 23 at 9:35am
RSK: perhaps we could ask the california department of education. surely they can find a way to fund this rant by cutting a few more qualified teachers, increasing the regimented standards, take more time from the students so they quit getting into trouble so much… actually… valium. lots and lots of valium. then we won’t give a d@mn about your problems and rants…
October 23 at 9:55am
MS: until the end i was not sure if it was the students, teachers, or us you were suggesting to medicate. I believe the pharmaceutical industry would advocate all the above.
October 23 at 10:16am
JF: We need rant standards.
October 23 at 10:21am
TM: You got the public and the system part right. The education part, however, isn’t happening. Between government at all levels and the pandering unions, our children are and have been royally screwed.
October 23 at 10:22am
DK: then by all means, let’s form a committee. yes, that’s what we need. a committee. with meetings. lots and lots of meetings. and we’ll develop a policy that will mandate that our students WILL learn by golly, but of course, it also must mandate that teachers not be allowed to really teach, because the constitution says that “all men are create equal”, which means, of course, that all children are standard and shall be treated as such. blah blah blah blah…
October 23 at 10:23am
MS: I believe you have activated the choir – now we must convert the unwilling blinded masses. I suggest the first thing we do is take out all the tv satellites.
October 23 at 10:30am
KK: Did you hear that the Governator made Tulare county 4 school days a week?
October 23 at 10:33am
DK: Kyle: Just Tulare or the whole state? I’ve heard talk about that but not seen anything solid. Got a link to an article? Micheal: yeah. I toggle between wanting to change the system from within and not being willing to sacrifice my children to a failed experiment. Matt is learning more at home today watching science channel while sick that he has all week sitting at school… and I LOVE his teacher. Problem is that she has 27 kids at all levels, and Matt is above most of them in most subjects. One of the more interesting comments I’ve read this week said something like “we are blaming teachers for the problem in the classrooms while at the same time expecting teachers to fix the problem.” Some wise guy said “We can’t solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them”…. oh yeah, that was Albert Einstein. Smart aleck. What did he know?
October 23 at 10:43am
JH: WORD!
October 23 at 10:55am
KK: Unfortunately I can’t find an article. One of my teachers was talking about it on Monday. I’ll see if I can’t get more info out of her next time I see her.
October 23 at 12:35pm
KMK: I thought they believed it started at 3:30 with the parents helping with hours upon hours of homework…why do we send them to school to have to teach them at home?
October 23 at 2:01pm
KM: I agree with Korey on that….3+ hours of homework a night for my 5th grader is too much. Kids are kids…so let them be. They will have plenty of time to be grown-up. Learning at home is suppose to be fun like peanut butter cup atom’s and baking soda volcano’s…..Not more of the same repetitious crap that has been photo copied by a lady that doesn’t even speak English. Television is not bad…..Unsupervised tv is. There are many educational shows that are great learning opportunities for kids….. If only parents got paid by the state to teach our own kids, rather than the schools. Mom or Dad would be able to afford to stay home and teach their kids and the issues on public education would be eliminated.
October 23 at 3:23pm
JS: You are full of crap with some of your thoughts! If the parents would PARENT their kids then we teachers CAN teach what they are supposed to learn. We spend over 50% of our day on discipline!!!! I agree that some teachers / schools give too much homework. My 3rd graders read for 20 minutes per night, and then maybe another 20-30 min. on math and ELA. It is not our fault totally when students do not pay attention the 2-4 times we are trying to get a concept across to them. Kyle as far as the 4 day week goes, Yes, I have heard the same thing, but it will still be the same number of minutes in the school year.
October 23 at 5:46pm
KMK: I really don’t think that extending the school day to facilitate closing schools on Fridays will work, By 3:00 Katrina is done. She usually comes home and takes a nap and yes she gets to bed early enough on school nights. you are talking about 2 more hours a day to disolve Fridays into Mon-Thur. Plus you are adding a financial burden to many parents who will continue to have a 5 hour work week. Jean, what you give as homework sounds reasonable but when my kids bring home several hours of work home daily and they aren’t even in High School yet it is excessive.
October 23 at 5:54pm
KMK: Several times I have to teach my Kids how to do their homework and they are bright Kids and I have the same BA degree as the teachers do…what do parents and students do without the education background to “teach” their children at home.
October 23 at 5:55pm
JS: I don’t think extending the school day is a good idea either. I am at school from 6:45-4:00 every day getting work finished and ready for the new day. The government is giving teachers more and more crap paperwork to do. If they work go back to learning in the days of yore it would be easier on the kids. When I was in school we learned mult. in the 4th grade and div. in the 5th. Now kids have to start learning them in 2nd and 3rd. We have 20 min. each day to teach science and social studies. The kids are so excited when we actually get to do them.
October 23 at 6:03pm
KMK: I know exactly what you mean, and the school year didn’t start until after Labor Day. They taught addition in first, subtraction in 2nd, multiplication in 3rd, division in 4th. We had Music and Science every week, Art every day. Don’t forget recess. We learned a lot more teachers had more resources to work with and more parents cared about what was going on at school. Not to mention every classroom had a TA. California Public Schools were number one in the Nation during my generation. What Happened?
October 23 at 6:10pm
KMK: If there is any question as to why I walked away from education when all I had left was my credential…
October 23 at 6:11pm
KMK: I am very happy where I’m at.
October 23 at 6:12pm
KK: Well I can say with out a second thought that I hated school. It was always more and more work, and busy work at that. I got it the first time the teacher went over it(I know most people don’t learn like me but why should I be penalized for it) why should I spend hours the rest of the day repeating the same concept?
October 23 at 7:31pm
KM: Jean-Although we don’t agree on most issues, I will say that you are one of the few teachers that really care, and go above and beyond. Most people don’t have a problem necessarily with the teachers, but with the same governmental policies and procedures that you speak of. Johnathyn’s teacher had parents running the class two days last week so that she could get all of the MANDATORY testing done. Does it really matter what reading level a kid is at (based on the state testing) on a monthly basis? As long as the child is improving, that is what is really important!
October 23 at 8:10pm
MD: … hmmm, and this brings up several great reasons to homeschool! Kyle I was with you, bored out of my mind in school, straight A’s cause I wanted to please everyone and could do it quickly, but sooo much time spent daydreaming looking out the window!
October 23 at 8:13pm
KM: Jean- We have also talked before about how your principal does not leave her office at all during the school day, yet my kids’ principal knows each and every student at their school. Some teachers become complacent in their job and slide into autopilot. That is not fair to the students! As Korey said; Taylor (5th grade) also has an excessive amount of homework on a daily basis. I agree with 1 hour, but not any more than that. They are still kids!
October 23 at 8:16pm
KK: Straight A’s, not for me… Maybe if I had stayed at one school long enough but that is a different issue all together.
October 24 at 12:20am
DK: I had too much to say in response so I made a note and tagged y’all in it: http://www.facebook.com/note.php?created&&suggest¬e_id=159320913109.
Looking forward to more discussion 
October 26 at 10:15am
Debby’s Note
In response to a LONG thread with some outstanding comments (and a few sarcastic ones!) re: my status message “frustrated with a public education system that believes learning only happens between 8&3 in a desk. not even sure where to start THAT rant!” (http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/debbyk?v=feed&story_fbid=188274400714).
This is a subject I think about a lot because I am so immersed in education at all levels, from elementary to graduate, from formal to informal. I interact on a regular basis with classroom teachers, university professors, school board members, state dept of education folks, international educators, educational consultants and many others who have a stake in educational interests. I am a parent of eight, five of whom are currently school aged (with one getting closer to kindergarten age), so I connect with lots of parents as well, some of whom have chosen traditional public schooling, many who are homeschooling, some who are engaging in other alternative choices. I see kids straight from high school and students who are reentering school after many years in my college classes. Every year, I get several teenagers who are on alternative tracks (ie: in trouble) as well. There is a great diversity in what I hear coming from all of these people… but one thing is very consistent. The way “school” is set up isn’t working for a large number of students.
Let me be clear. My issue isn’t with teachers. It’s with a broken system that they are forced to work within. I know a wonderful principal right now who is required to do something that she knows makes no sense but she has to anyhow… because that’s how the system is set up. Here’s the catch… I know phenomenal teachers. My kids have phenomenal teachers. They are young, enthusiastic, willing to be creative and try new ideas. I fully agree with Jean about stupid parents being a part of the problem. However, I’m not one of those stupid parents. I am a professional educator. I am on the school board. I know all of the teachers personally and talk to them often about their experiences. I see first hand the challenges they face. The irony is that teachers are under more pressure now than ever before. They are being blamed for low test scores while at the same time being asked to solve the problem they supposedly created (which is crap). See http://3.ly/5nW for an article on the insanity of this conundrum.
We are all caught up in an adversarial system. Teachers blame parents. Parents blame teachers. Administrators blame the lack of money, state & federal regulations that place unfunded mandates on everyone. We all defend our territory (classroom, school, district, home) because there is a “scarcity of resources” mentality. Kids spend all day in school and come home to have to do more… and hate it all. In the meantime, the very fabric of our society is being torn apart because instead of being able to spend quality family time with their children, parents are placed in the role of homework enforcer in the few hours they have with their kids after school. The systems operates on the false assumption that it is the “expert” in child raising and that it knows better than parents what is best for children. Parents willingly give over their children to others to raise because it’s easier, it’s what they know, and there is incredible pressure to do so. Everyone is in defensive mode making sure all the right boxes are checked off because of the “gotcha” environment that has been created by standardized testing, accountability, and all the other BS that on the surface seems worthwhile because you can measure it, but in reality does a huge disservice to our kids (especially the “non-standard” ones!). There isn’t a teacher that I know who doesn’t feel locked in and stressed because they KNOW there are better ways to reach children, INDIVIDUAL children, but they are mandated and regulated and evaluated to the point where they fear losing their jobs if they actually do something to buck the system that is so very frustrating to work within.
This month’s District Administration magazine talks about national standards and how we are taking tips from countries like Japan and China in how we are restructuring our educational system. Really? In the name of efficiency and competition, we are organizing and scheduling our kids in so tightly with schoolwork, homework, lessons, tutors, sports, media (everything BUT family time actually) that they don’t have the slack time that is necessary to dream, create, innovate and invent. Our country values freedom enough to fight wars over but our kids have no real idea what freedom is because their scripted, supervised lives don’t allow for much (Growing Up Scripted, Education Week, 10/12/09). America didn’t make it to the top because we were more efficient and productive than other countries. We made it to the top because we were more innovative and creative than other countries. And now we are taking lessons from the very countries we surpassed by adding more scripted time to our children’s already overprescribed schedules? Am I the only one that sees the insanity and irony in this situation?
Good teachers will be good teachers regardless of the shackles because they will find a way around the foolishness. Smart kids with educated parents will do well despite the system (not because of it). We have all bought into a system that has created an institutional mindset and it just isn’t working. The question I wrestle with is do I try to change a system that is totally out of control from within… or do I work to create alternatives educational opportunities for those willing to take a chance on something new? I tend to run in educational circles (local, state, national, and international) that would prefer to take the creative, innovative, constructivist approach to solving these problems. Just because it has “always” been done this way (which isn’t actually true) doesn’t mean we always have to do it this way. Our society has changed dramatically… but the way we educate our children is pretty much the same as it was a hundred years ago. I think that it is time for the people closest to the children (parents AND teachers) to take a good, hard look at what is really happening, longitudinally, and do what is right… not just what is measurable and required. We need to think about what our desired outcomes are and work back from there to create educational experiences that facilitate independent learning, creativity, critical thinking, and all of the other skills that kids in this century will need. We are educating them for jobs that don’t exist yet, for technologies that haven’t been invented yet. How do you test for competency in the ability to adapt to change that happens that fast?
I don’t have the perfect answer… but I do know people who are on the right track…
“We don’t need to have schools that create winners and losers, we don’t have to grade and rank and sort and label kids the way we do. We can create environments where kids want to be and, in fact that’s the only future that’s viable for schools because there’s going to be all sorts of competing interests.” ~ Gary Stager http://www.imagineitproject.com/?p=2249
“Schools have to move beyond bubble tests and memorizing state birds. We have to teach kids how to build community, how to be responsible and engaged citizens, how to communicate and make a difference. We are at a crossroads on the planet and the only way to move things forward is to engage every student to give us the best they’ve got to creatively solve some mighty big problems.” ~ Peter Reynolds http://3.ly/ITm
What do you think? You who are in the trenches? What can you do to make a long term impact beyond the spring state test scores? And most importantly, how can we help you? What would be the ideal solution? The perfect school? We have to start somewhere… what is the vision?
COMMENTS:
KNM: Wow.. Way to go Debby!!
October 26 at 10:25am
KMK: wow, this is quite compelling and obviously you did your homework. Have you considered sending this essay to the state and national deptments of education and every member of congress. I certainly would if it were mine to do so.
October 26 at 10:42am
DK: It’s not really a matter of doing homework for a one-time essay. All the stuff I quoted are articles/videos that I came across in the last week or so via twitter and facebook. I always try to stay current in what is being said on all sides of the issues so I read a lot of stuff. Thanks for the idea though… I just tagged my congressman on this note
October 26 at 10:51am
KMK: By homework I meant you were well educated in the subject at hand.
October 26 at 10:56am
LP: despite all my rage i am still just a rat in a cage. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxNX_PRqhCQ]
October 26 at 12:38pm
SB: It’s all political and it’s all about power. Americans will never lose the idea that they have a right to liberty, prosperity, and the pursuit of happiness, and if the government gets in the way, they can vote them out of office. The socialists in DC know this. So what do they do instead? If they can’t take those rights from the people, then they will let the people freely give up their rights. Dumbing down the schools is probably one of their best strategies. Split families apart and make everybody stupid and dependent on government; and while we’re at it, let’s brainwash them and call everybody who disagrees right-wing extremists and terrorists. We want to get everybody on welfare so that we have full control over their lives. America is doomed in my opinion.
October 26 at 12:42pm
KM: From my experience, and what I heard from my mother, it’s not the parents, and it’s definitely not the teachers. It’s not even the administrations, at least not individual ones. It’s the system. My mother went to China to finish out her teaching years because she was no longer allowed to teach all the fun things, take all the fun trips, and do all the fun projects she used to. She was no longer allowed to teach children how to learn. Instead, she had to teach them how to take tests. Many of her students were doomed to do poorly on those tests, because they were special needs or ESL students being forced to take the same tests as everyone else, and still SHE was penalized for that. Her school was penalized for having many ESL students who could not even read their test instructions
October 26 at 2:04pm
KMK: you cannot give someone a test in a language they know nothing about and expect them to do well.
October 26 at 2:08pm
KK: Stephen the idea that socialist want to dumb down your kids is stupid. Why would it be in their best interest and are they even really socialist to begin with? That sounds like political fear mongering to me.
October 26 at 3:15pm
SB: Stupid? lol You call my idea stupid because you assume that humans are inherently good and that those in power want to help people? “Why would it be in their best interest?” Kyle, I just stated earlier that it’s all about staying in power and getting more power. You’re right though. They’re not socialists; they’re czars. If they were true socialists, they would redistribute their wealth too. The fact is, don’t you agree that it’s easier to control a group of dumb people than it is to control a group of smart people? To make things easier, add the fact that these dumb people also depend on government welfare programs because they can’t get a job because they don’t have the necessary education! Why else do you think schools spend more time studying the arts than the basics (math, reading and writing)? Why else do you think they grade on a curve than on a basis of whether you learned the subject or not? They want you to fail. They want you to be dependent on them. National health care? Deciding who dies and who can get treated and continue living? They want to control your life. I don’t think this is far out. This is fact.
October 26 at 4:47pm
KMK: wow someone is lost in his own delusion. If you truely want an entity to fear? Than look at the corporate sector. It is the large multinational corporations that want to keep people down. Appearently you don’t know the difference between Socialism as it exists in Western Europe and Marxist Communism either. The Education system and advances in Science and Technology that has come out of the EU in the last generation has surpassed the United States without the strict ridged Structure in the Orient. Which by the way one result of Japan’s ridged educational system is the highest teen suicide rate in the world because of the extreme pressure put on their kids to succeed and the dishonor of not making it into the University. Communism at its philosophical best has everyone contribute into the society that which they can contribute and get back that which they need. nobody gets rich but everyones needs are met. Socialism in the European Union (of Which Kyle and I both spent a few years living in) Has higher taxes than the United States but has universal access to healthcare which is rated the best in the world. The average fulltime worker works 32 hours a week but has a higher salary than the same professional in the US who works 40hours. The family dynamics as a result are closer to how the US was in the 1950’s resulting in more of the youth not having behavioral issues at school. Therefore the education system is more effective, much like the USA was a couple generations ago. They have social welfare programs to help those who become unemployed or disabled but it isn’t abused like it is here and the EU works hard at keeping unemployment rates to a minimum. Then there are the arts…your other unfounded arguement. Are you not aware that when schools in the US have budget cuts the Arts are the first to go? Did you also know that the Arts…fine art, music, drama, actually improve cognitive function and thus increases performance in core subjects. Did you also not know that it is the creativity that is nurtured in the Arts that has led to most of the Advances of mankind in general due to the emphasis being on creativity and not memorization. Maybe next time you should do a little research before you start to moo with the rest of the herd.
October 26 at 5:21pm
KK: What’s funny is that you assume that I assume. That is the end all be all of any come back I need to all that misinformation. You seem to assume to much. You are very misinformed about socialism and communism(lets see if you can figure out why those words aren’t capitalized). Both philosophies\ideologies call for an increased emphasis on science and art as well as the increased welfare(not wealth) of all. I think I’ll leave it at that for now.
October 26 at 5:53pm
SB: Forget it. This isn’t going to go anywhere.
October 26 at 6:04pm
DK: Katherine, I didn’t know your mom went to China. Is she on Facebook? I’d love to connect with her and talk about her experiences there.
October 26 at 6:08pm
DK: This is the sort of blame game I am talking about. It’s easy to trench in and blame (insert X). What is not so easy is to figure out what to do about it and move on from here. Sure it’s political… but it’s not one party or the other shouldering the whole blame because the problem goes back beyond last year, the last 10 years, the last 20 years. We elect those people. If we don’t like it, we should elect other people instead. Assuming someone else’s view is invalid, delusional, or otherwise wrong just because it is different from ours shows the weaknesses in our own case more than defaults in others. So… where do we go from here? What would your ideal educational situation look like? That’s what I am interested in. Not more of the petty political talks that hold no relevance anyhow. LindaX… perfect song for how it feels. So do we do what Stager does and try to change the world? Or do we focus on our own kids and try to impact their experience? Or do we throw up our hands and say “screw it”… idealism never gets us anywhere? I’d love to sit down with you and Gary and talk this one through sometime. I see glimmers of hope in what people like Paul and Peter are doing, in what innovative educators are trying to slip through the cracks but it seems like too little, too late sometimes.
October 26 at 6:09pm
KM: No, she hasn’t caught the Facebook bug yet, haha. I’m sure she’d be glad to hear from you, though. Her email address is {deleted} =)
October 26 at 7:33pm
RSK: yeah, we shouldn’t even get me started here. i’ve been pissed off at the inefficiencies and stupidities of our educational system (which by the way all parties–including the venerable democrats and republicans–have had a hand in creating). when i noticed that all the mainstream math books asked grade school kids to do critical thinking, i knew the system had failed. they had managed to ask kids under the age of 11 to do tasks which they are not even cognitively prepared (except possibly for savants)! i’m not a psychology major (although i did manage to pick up a PhD in physics from one-a-them-thar-mail-order-degree-outfits–jk but not about the PhD). The one or two psychology classes i had in college told me that critical thinking happens developmentally around the age of 11 or twelve right along with the change in life for the ladies and the onset of all the wonderful hormones we fear and sometimes loath. so how, pray tell, is a 7-year-old gonna think critically? i’ll tell you how: they learn that critical thinking is parroting back the answer that the teacher wants to hear! that’s the great “critical thinking” we are actually teaching kids! the good teachers know it, but they have to use the textbooks given to them. the system is BROKEN, people! so, the question is: do we save our own children in hopes that their intellect might be passed on and appreciated in future generations, or do we go ahead and sacrifice them to the blood-thirsty deity called public education? bet you can’t guess what i think! most likely they’ll be offered up in either case because intelligent people tend to be rational, and rational people get killed by mobs of sheople (apologies to Mr. Bunch for stealing his conspiracy theories).
October 26 at 8:17pm
KMK: The thing about this whole discussion is that in order to fix public education (not that most private schools are doing any better) is to fix PUBLIC. The education system is just one symptom of the whole beast we call society. Our society is broken and you can throw a bandaid at one symptom or try to heal the whole. I for one don’t know the answer to fix the whole of society but until then education won’t be fixed either. They are too intertwined, for example single poor intercity mother working two jobs to make ends meet which has no time to spend with her kids who then turn elsewhere for a sence of belonging maybe a street gang for instance. These are not the kids that show up in school prepared to learn. Are their shortcomings the fault of the education system or society at large?
October 26 at 9:18pm
KM: I think there needs to be some kind of middle ground. Without people stepping out and standing for change, change will not occur. We can’t just sit back and watch a generation or two go down because we don’t say anything. We can’t sit back and let a bunch of well-fair mamas determine the fate of this great nation.
October 26 at 9:56pm
KK: I can’t point out a fix but I can give you a list of the things that were the biggest deterrent to my education. In no particular order; 1. Main streaming very emotionally disturbed or severely mentally handicapped kids, especially with out good TAs. This goes along with idiot parents who refuse to believe that little Johny is autistic or ADHD or one of the many other obvious disorders out there. 2. Non english speaking students in classes not meant for english as a second language. The most worst was when the admin put a guy that only spoke spanish with a Portuguese teacher because he didn’t know the difference. It was a science class too. 3. The accelerated reader program. The worst part of english class. I have to read two books on par with War and Peace while stupid over here gets to read a pamphlet on teen pregnancy. How is that fair or productive. 4. The lack of social history in American history classes. 5. This is one of Debby’s favs. Redundant learing. How many times do kids need to learn the rain cycle or about Omaha beach. 6. Home work. I got bad grades because for most of my hs classes home work was at least 30% and in one class(math) 60% of the grade. I flat out refuse to spend 3 hours each night on EACH subject. If my in class grade is an A and my tests are all A’s and B’s why even factor in hw?
October 26 at 11:51pm
KMK: Those are all very good points Kyle-Especially AR. I hate AR and im not even the one taking the teats!
October 27 at 3:25pm
KK: For me it seemed unfair and I never passed because I didn’t like the books. All I wanted to read was Tolkien but they wanted me to read Don Quixote.
October 27 at 5:42pm
